13 Responses to “Ma’am vs. Miss”

1. Marianne Says:
   October 23rd, 2007 at 4:39 am

   It started happening to me in London after I turned 30. It completely freaks me out. I don’t think I suddenly started looking so much older, I mean how can these people all of a sudden just ’see’ that I must be old enough to be in the ma’am category??

2. Jessy Randall Says:
   October 24th, 2007 at 3:38 pm

   You are definitely not alone. I hate being ma’am-ed. It happens to me more often when I’m with my kids, but it’s starting to happen even when I’m on my own. I’m 37. I suppose it’s related to the problem of Miss/Mrs./Ms., too. I hate being called Mrs., it gets my feminist ire up. What is so hard about Ms.? And then there’s being called Ms. and then your first name … ugh.

3. Christopher Thomas Says:
   October 30th, 2007 at 1:31 pm

   I, too, hate being called ma’am!

4. Ilene Says:
   October 30th, 2007 at 6:50 pm

   I think it can be a cultural thing, too. I look nothing like a ma’am but I’ve been called it by students and when I’ve traveled to Asia.

5. Remy Kurzweil Says:
   November 7th, 2007 at 10:13 am

   This ma’am thing is driving me to the bloody brink.
   I’ve noticed that living in global (cheaper, but not for long) Queens in NYC with its predominately working class and international bourgeouis (sic) population, and mostly patriarchal conservative cultural roles with reference to gender and age, has had a definite influence. It’s certainly not the East Village, for example, where as a black-lipsticked retro Goth, I am rarely ma’amed. I always want to ask the usually well-intentioned person, especially when she is a female who is older than I am, “Exactly how _old_ do you think I am?” I’ve noticed that if I am in a particularly bad mood, I might actually counter with something like: “Ma’am? My mom is ma’am, my grandma is ma’am. I’m a ‘miss’.” I always wind up feeling like the non-neurotypical nut job that I am, that is, vastly inappropriate in public, and hating to return to the store or restaurant or whatever. The person usually apologizes and seems generally clueless. I try to act normal and friendly. It does no good at all. But, if I say nothing, I feel worse about it.

   Where I live, if you’re not pushing a baby carriage while studying for the Regents, or buying a brassiere, or hanging on some idiot’s arm, you’re probably using a cane or purchasing a blue rinse for your hair not likely to be sold at Ricky’s.

   It also seems that our culture and etiquette has changed in just the last 2 or 3 years partly due to rapidly developing technology–people seem more self-absorbed and superficial in general, and broadly speaking, appear to be more conventional, less original. It’s harder to be yourself in public without garnering negative attention. If you can’t be who you are on the streets of Manhattan, where else can you go? “Be” meaning expressive of self in creative couture, cool hair, etc. I dread getting on the subway. It’s as if I have no representative generation. High school kids. Sad-eyed, middle-aged ladies smiling at you as if you’re either quite the cute youngun’ or worse, as if in some sort of collusion: welcome to our world of invisibility, limitation, powerlessness, and sagging skin as their uninvited spreading hind quarters and oversized plastic handbags take up their seat and half of yours. And, in case you see me as cruel or self-indulgent, recognize that I fear a meltdown as I see myself gradually aging out of my identity as obviously young and full of infinite potential. It is all very painful to look at what society considers to be the norm. I feel alienated surrounded by “ladies” definitely not leading the purported “examined life.” We all get older, sure, but, I do not wish to join the world of the dreaded Ma’amBots. As far as I’m concerned, any age is premature to consign oneself or be consigned to this hellish nineth circle of Ma’am.

   Please don’t judge me, this is mostly impressionistic and not meant as a sociological putdown of any imaginary population or demographic and BTW thanks for reading!

   Has anyone noticed these kinds of things in New York (any NYers with equivalent experiences out there?), the East Coast and environs? Is it easier going in SF or LA, suburbs, Northern Ohio, upstate NY? What about recent social trends encouraging the more frequent use of the term by employees in the service sectors? Please respond with personal experiences and/or ideas.

6. admin Says:
   November 7th, 2007 at 10:17 am

   Wow, this is amazing to hear your responses so far. The Ma’am thing has been driving me nuts, too, obviously. I never thought of talking back and asking, How old do you think I am? I guess I was afraid of the answer. I will have to think about how I could use that tactic myself. I’m going to think more and write more about this for sure.

7. Kay Says:
   November 9th, 2007 at 2:02 pm

   I’m one of those women who’s passed the Invisible Barrier from “Miss”-dom to “Ma’am”-dom, without my consent, will or understanding.

   I think the annoyance comes from several levels:

   1. I don’t think anyone has the right to make assumptions about me, including my age/marital status, by calling me Ma’am.

   If one is going to defend the Ma’ammers on the grounds they are only Ma’amming “older” people, who are THEY (the Ma’ammers) to judge who is older than they are? In addition, if that is the rule, then very subcontext of the Ma’am is automatically “I’m younger than you are,”. And, YES!! I’ll say it, when one is in their 30’s and you get Ma’ammed by a woman in her mid-20’s, it can be a little punch in the gut. [And, why should one only respect older people anyway??]

   I mean, I can SEE she’s younger than I am…duh…I don’t need her to re-inforce the obvious by calling me Ma’am.

   2. This obviously touches on another point, which is the more embarrasing. Ok! I’m not 25 anymore. But, I don’t feel any different on the inside, why do I need to have STRANGERS point this out to me - the fact that I am aging? Yes, I am getting older and I’m sensitive about it. Whether I “should” be sensitive about it or not is another issue. The point is that I still feel attractive, and therefore am really perplexed when I get called Ma’am. It’s a real let-down.

   3. There is an inherent sexist component to this, in that while men do have a “Sir” (which some men too don’t like, for their own reasons), there is no TRUE and COMMOMLY USED equivalent to the “Miss”.

   So, what women go through is as I mentioned above, The Invisible Barrier. All our lives it is , “Can I help you Miss?” “Over here, please Miss.” Then BOOM!! Poof!! You’re a Ma’am one day for some strange reason (or, like I like to say…an old Botox-deprived hag..ha ha ha ha ha).

   And as for those who would defend the Ma’ammers on “it’s just a term of respect” grounds…well.

   -Is it respectful to make judgments about others?
   -Is it respectful to make assumptions about strangers?
   -Is it respectful to make others feel bad?

   Those terms were created when people lived in small towns and everybody knew everybody, or it was easy to tell a woman’s status by her dress, or carriage or other indicators. These days, our society is too complicated to make such assumptions about strangers.

   All I need from personal interactions in public is a polite, “Can I help you with that?” or “What would you like for an appetizer tonight?” NOT, “Can I help you with that, Ma’am?” or “What would you like for an appetizer tonight, Ma’am?” Just having a good attitude in itself is respectful, along with being polite and efficient.

   And, I promise, one final note….most women I know…a good 4 out of 5 statistacally, actually cannot stand the term. So I ask them, “Well, then why don’t you say anything if you hate it so much? I do.”

   Answer, “Well, they’re just trying to be polite,”
   or
   “I don’t want to start an argument,”
   or
   “uh..I don’t know…maybe I’m embarassed,”.

   Well, I almost ALWAYS say, “Please don’t call me ma’am, or just ‘don’t call me ma’am’,” or I’ll make some joke about having been called Ma’am that makes it clear I was insulted, somewhat like the writer above, “Ma’am? Reeealllyyyyyy? Ok, so you think I’m old?” and put THEM on the spot. 99% of the time they “get” it, they know they’ve insulted your age. 10% of the time you need to “enlighten” them.

   But my overwhelming response is TOTAL understanding! Most clerks & salespeople (and even a flight attendant recently) completely know that women don’t like it!!! They almost always immediatly say, “Sorry,”. or, “Whoops!” or “I guess I could have left the Ma’am off, right?” or they joke back, “Ok young lady,”. Rarely have I ever had to explain why I don’t like it. Point is, if you don’t like it, say so. If you don’t, nothing will ever change.

   So get out there!! Be brave! Let people know we don’t like it! Ask them to end their sentences leaving the Ma’am out.

8. Amy Smith Says:
   November 11th, 2007 at 6:56 am

   Let me tell you about the first time I was called ma’am - I was all of 21, in a head shop buying a bong when the kid behind the counter called me ma’am.

   That was mind blowing in and of itself.

   My French professor in college kept harping on how she thought she’d be called Madame instead of Mademoiselle the next time she went to Paris. And she was.

   Being called Ma’am (short for Madame)is a form of politeness, in my opinion, and doesn’t really bother me. Now, if you call me a broad I will probably get upset, but I have more important things to get riled up besides being called ma’am.

   I do agree that there is some type of construct in our society that makes people think that it’s okay to call me Ms. Amy and my male counterpart Mr. Smith - that I don’t get. Why are people more familiar with women and more formal with men? This especially happens in medical offices (where there are now laws in place about using names.)

9. Deborah Says:
   November 13th, 2007 at 6:37 pm

   The first time I was ever called “ma’am” was in my mid-20’s, by a (male) teenaged checkout clerk. It surprised and amused me — I didn’t give it any thought.

   For the past few years I’ve been enjoying being ma’am-ed. Truly! There’s part of me that feels I’m being given the respect I deserve — not due to my age, but just in general. Maybe I’m delusional! But it doesn’t feel like an age thing to me. I wouldn’t have minded being ma’am-ed when I was five, frankly.

10. Stella Says:
    November 19th, 2007 at 6:52 pm

    This is a good topic and one people should start paying attention to, if just for etiquette’s sake. I am sometimes called miss and sometimes called ma’am. I am in my early 30’s and it shocks/suprises me to be called ma’am.

    I have thought about this alot and noticed a few things. One, I think that possibly my ability to buy nicer things or shop at certain places indicates that I am not a struggling youth. I’m guessing that some of it has to do with that. When you reach your 30’s you are more able to buy things and be in places that responsible, more successful adults would, therefore you seem older than the help.

    Also, my day isn’t consumed with “how cute I look to go to the store” like it was in my early 20’s. I think being dolled-up constantly (even though fun) is mostly for people with the *time* for that… like teens and 20-somethings. I am usually rushing too, another indicator of less “youth freedom”. Lastly, most people find themselves living in more “civilized” areas by their 30’s… which, as you know, is for older people

    However, when I decide to look cute, dress up, be crazy, whatever… I do not get the ma’am thing. Which does say something… It does mean that I am being judged when people call me ma’am, which I definitely find distasteful. I prefer charm and etiquette to age-based “respect”. Only children should be encouraged to show people older than them respect. After teen years, something else needs to happen. That is my quick 2cents.

11. Mark Says:
    November 26th, 2007 at 4:15 pm

    Ma’am:
    n. Used as a form of polite address for a woman: Will that be cash or charge, ma’am?
    Sir:
    1.a respectful or formal term of address used to a man: No, sir.

    As a store proprietor, I very occasionally tack on an honorific when addressing a customer. I generally use Ma’am or Sir with older people, but I can understand those in service positions using these titles on any man or woman. Although I sometimes, even at 47, must stifle the urge to look behind me when someone addresses me as Mister or Sir, I think it is pointless to possibly make someone feel uncomfortable by pointing out that you disapprove of their form of address. Accept it gracefully, or, if it is a person you will deal with frequently, introduce yourself.

12. Jennifer Says:
    December 4th, 2007 at 12:07 pm

    I wanted to ’second’ Stella’s observation. I too have noticed that when I have taken the extra time to put on makeup, and do something with my hair, and have a ‘tighter’ shirt on - generally look more attractive - the Ma’am factor goes down exponentially. Rarely do I get Ma’ammed when I am dolled up. So, yes, this does say something to me. I’m not sure what it says, but I don’t like it.

    As for the store proprietor above, do you notice the amount of ambivalence about the term Ma’am expressed here, if not outright dislike for the word? If there is so much distaste, or just ambivalence, why use it in your store? Why even take the chance to offend people?

    You say it is pointless to make clerks feel uncomfortable by pointing out they’ve offended us? Why? That’s what Customer Service is about: Customer Service. Not Customer Take Our Shit Laying Down.

    And, there is nothing wrong with saying, “Will that be cash or charge?” Period. No add-ons are necessary, nor it appears, are they welcome.

13. Greg Says:
    December 15th, 2007 at 1:06 am

    I definitely have a different opinion of the “ma’am” issue. It’s certainly a regional thing, but read further.

    I currently live in the southwest but I grew up in the deep south. My parents are from the midwest. Neither of my parents raised me to address people with “ma’am” or “sir” since it wasn’t part of their own culture or upbringing. We moved to the south right as I was beginning school age. On one of the first few days of school, I remember being called upon to answer a question in class. It was a simple yes/no question and I answered “yes.”

    “What did you just say?!”
    “Yes.”
    “You go right to the principal’s office!”

    I’m serious. I was sent to the principal’s office to be disciplined because I showed disrespect to my teacher. All I was missing was the word “ma’am.” In retrospect, I’m pretty sure my teacher was in her twenties, maybe early thirties, certainly not her sixties or seventies.

    This was in the mid-eighties. And I mean 1980s, not 1880s. I’m only 28 years old now. To many people I know this seems totally baffling.

    As I eventually learned, in the South it’s expected that children politely address anyone older than themselves as “ma’am” or “sir.” It’s also expected that adults address anyone from about puberty onward as “ma’am” or “sir.” (Of course there are exceptions for things like close friends, but even then you’d be surprised.) I’m not making this stuff up. My wife is from a different part of the South, and she agrees with all of this.

    I’ve later learned that these polite forms of address are quite common in American military families regardless of geography.

    I’m currently working retail and most certainly address every single female customer as “ma’am” and every single male customer as “sir.” I don’t know if I could avoid doing so if I tried since it’s been so ingrained in my manner of speaking. In the southwest, there’s an interesting mix of folks from Texas, who expect ma’am and sir, and folks from California, who find ma’am and sir a tad pretentious.

    To Jennifer, I will analyze your sentence:
    “Will that be cash or charge?”
    To a Southerner, that means:
    “Will that be cash or charge, bitch?”
    A polite Southerner would say:
    “Will that be cash or charge, ma’am?”
    And that is in no way intended to mean:
    “Will that be cash or charge, old crone?”

    So please don’t think everyone who calls you “ma’am” thinks you are approaching senility. They might just come from the South or from a family with a strong military history. They’re just trying to show common courtesy.

    So, here’s this transplanted Southerner’s response to:
    “What is the appropriate age for baristas, video store clerks, and waitresses to start calling a woman ‘ma’am’? Please tell me, because I would like to know.”
    “About 13.”
    “Are you joking?”
    “No, ma’am.”

Leave a Reply